On Wednesday, May 14, the Word for Word Literary Series welcomed literary agents Joshua Bilmes and Lucienne Diver for a wide-ranging discussion about literary agents and their role in the publishing industry.
Joshua Bilmes is the president and founder of JABberwocky Literary Agency, which celebrated its 30th anniversary in 2024. The agency has had enduring relationships with bestselling writers Brandon Sanderson and Charlaine Harris, each of whom has sold more than 30 million books worldwide, as well as with many other successful writers in a variety of genres.
Lucienne Diver joined The Knight Agency in 2008, after spending fifteen years at the prestigious Spectrum Literary Agency. With her sharp eye and gift for spotting original new voices, she is one of the most well-respected agents in the industry.
Joshua and Lucienne graciously fielded questions from associate deans Jacob Powers and Paul Witcover and answered audience questions as well.
Following is a transcript of that Q&A, edited for the page.
W4W: Could you talk to us a little bit of how you decided to become literary agents and how you got your start in the business?
LD: I started right out of college as an assistant at Spectrum Literary Agency. I was lucky. When I walked in for the interview, I was reading a book by one of the agency’s clients. I saw it on the shelf, and I brought it out of my bag, and I said, “Wow, I’m reading that, and I’m loving it.” And the interview just went from there. When Eleanor Wood (founder of the agency) offered me the job, she said, “Well, there were other people with more experience, but I just felt like we clicked. So let’s give it a shot.”
After about six months—actually, I think it was less than that—she had me critiquing one of her client manuscripts because it involved a generational war, and she wanted another generation’s perspective. I gave her my notes, and she said, “Oh, that’s really good. Why don’t you write that up and send it to Larry Niven?” [Niven is a multiple Hugo Award–winning author—ed.] And I went, “I’m sorry, what?”
So I did, and this was over 4th of July weekend, and I waited, thinking that when we came back from the weekend, Larry Niven was going to be like, “I’m sorry, who is this upstart, and what does she think she has to tell me?”
And we came back from the weekend, and the agony was just killing me. And nothing happens, and nothing happens, and nothing happens. Finally I had to call him to ask how many author’s copies he wanted of something, and he answered and said, “Oh, Lucienne, yes, I have your notes right here. They were very helpful.”
And that was the start of my literary career. Because after that, Eleanor trusted me. A few months later, I started taking on my own clients. It was actually a pretty quick journey.
JB: I’ve had the same job for forty years. And the job keeps changing. It’s a big change when you go from being an employee at an agency [the Scott Meredith Agency—ed.], which I was for eight years. And then six months of craziness after Scott Meredith died, including running the agency for a period of time because there was just nobody else around to do it, and then starting JABberwocky. That was me in my apartment, and then me with employees in my apartment.
And then getting out of the apartment and realizing that the apartment was like that insect’s old shell that is confining the size of the business and having it double in size in six months. And now to running a company with twelve people. It’s the same job, and it’s just constantly, constantly changing.
W4W: Let’s pull some questions from the chat. Here’s on about a thesis project that’s a fantasy romance that ends with a cliffhanger. Will querying a novel that’s part of a series decrease the writer’s chances of getting an agent? Have you ever declined a query for that reason?
LD: Actually, publishers like a series. What they don’t like is [for a new writer to come to them] with a twelve-book series or a ten-book series. Because they don’t know that it’s going to sustain that yet. But if you’re talking about a trilogy or something, or an open-ended series, something like that is a positive. Because then they’re not having to promote every book fresh.
Sometimes standalones work, but it also depends on the market. America loves series. The UK, not so much. It really depends on your market as well. But when you’re talking romantasy, that lends itself to series generally.
JB: Some editors say, “Romantasy, oh, it’s oversaturated.” Then other editors say, “I’m still looking for romantasy.” It’s really hard to generalize from that. You’ve got to do what’s right for the book.
W4W: There have been so many changes in the literary world in the time that both of you have been agents. One of them has got to be the rise of self-publishing and indie publishing as a viable income stream for writers. How has that impacted your work as agents selling to traditional publishers, and how do you view a writer that’s coming to you with a query who has self-published in the past? Is that a plus or a minus as far as you’re concerned?
JB: That changed big time. Genre romance, military science fiction, classic kinds of epic fantasy, LitRPG, light novels—there are all of these areas that have largely moved to non-traditional publishing. So it is not a stigma. It hasn’t been in a really long time. And I’m glad of it. It is so nice to see imprints within Penguin Random House willing to do print-only deals after saying for a long time that they could only ever publish a book if they had it in print, eBook, and audio. That’s good for everybody.
LD: I agree with Joshua. It really depends. I mean, in general, you don’t want to come to an agent with something that’s already been published, but even that depends. If you’ve already self-published something, and it’s been wildly successful, there are times that we can sell that to a traditional publisher. Matt Dinniman’s Dungeon Crawler Carl is a great example. And he’s now taken that to Penguin, and they’ve done the print, and it’s been extremely successful. I’ve taken on Aparna Verma, who self-published her first novel under a different title. Then Orbit brought it out as The Phoenix King. And that’s been very successful. The sequel is about to come out as well.
So it really depends. Self-publishing is fine, but you want to usually come to an agent with something new that has not previously been published, even if you have the track record in self-publishing.
W4W: What about hybrid authors—writers who go back and forth between indie publishing and traditional publishing. Would you still represent an author like that?
LD: As long as we discuss it and we have a plan, because, of course, you have to worry about options and non-compete clauses. But so as long as we discuss it and everybody’s fine with it, the publisher is fine with it, the author’s fine, then I’m fine. I have several authors that are hybrid and self-publish some and traditionally publish some.
JB: Yeah, and I get to work with Brandon Sanderson. I literally never know from project to project what approach he is going to take to wanting to share that book.
W4W: We talked about how eBooks have changed the industry. Indie publishing has changed the industry. Now we’re seeing artificial intelligence, the large language models like ChatGPT. How are they changing the industry? What do you see as the opportunities or dangers or challenges with this new technology?
LD: I just did a rant on this, so I’m sorry. Joshua, I hope you don’t mind me jumping in. This is a hot button for me. I literally got a query the other day where somebody said that they co-wrote their novel with AI. And I have a big problem with this, because all these AI programs, they’ve stolen from authors. Authors have found their work uploaded with no remuneration. There’s been no permission granted. This is not OK. For writers to be using AI to help them write and shortcutting based on stepping on the work of other writers who’ve put in all the effort and done the learning . . . It’s just, to me, absolutely not OK.
I mean, to learn about story structure or something like that. OK, fine, maybe, but you don’t use AI to help you write a novel. It’s not OK. And the problem is that people using AI to write has actually shut down a lot of magazine submissions, open submissions and things like that, because they’ve just gotten flooded with AI-written stories. And so you’re actually closing markets, and you’re closing markets to the people whose work you’re using. And, oh my goodness, I’m going to stop ranting now. But don’t use AI to write. It’s a problem, and it’s flooding the market, and it’s bad. Sorry. Joshua, I’ll turn it over to you now.
JB: So part of me sometimes thinks that AI is a boogeyman. The people behind AI are trying to make it seem so all-encompassing and inevitable. So part of me wants to always caution that we shouldn’t let the people who want to make it seem inevitable and unavoidable dictate how we react to it. Also there are certain things, like having AI do a translation of a book, that I would like to see happen over my dead body. I do not want to read prose written by AI. It’s not a good thing. I just don’t trust most of the people who are telling me I should like AI. Most of what they’ve done over the past 10 or 20 years has had a lot of deeply negative externalities for the world at large.
W4W: We’re living in it.
JB: Yeah.
W4W: Does it make a difference when it comes to the likelihood of acceptance if an author doesn’t have a large social media following when they query?
LD: I don’t care. I have also been on panels with agents who say it’s one of the first things they check. I don’t know if that’s changed. Social media has changed so much, like the combined engagement from Bluesky and Twitter is now deeply less than it was on Twitter four years ago. So which platform are you looking at? Because not everybody is on Insta and Facebook. But for me it has never been a factor in what I’ve taken on.
For fiction, it doesn’t matter. I mean, it helps. But I don’t go check it to determine whether I take somebody on or not. When I take somebody on, I advise that it’s a good idea you get comfortable with at least one form of social media. Usually something like Instagram or something like that. But I don’t think it’s a make or break.
For nonfiction, you have to have a platform. You have to have a platform in order for a publisher to pick you up. In order for you to sell, you have to be an authority on something. You have to have a presence in whatever industry or whatever it is you’re talking about. So it’s much more important for nonfiction than it is for fiction. I don’t do nonfiction. But I just know that from the market.
W4W: It seems like the answer I’m hearing—and this is kind of a trend with many of these questions—is it depends. It depends on who you’re submitting to. And it depends on how you’re presenting yourself. So maybe the message for our students and audience is don’t give up after the first two or three or four or five rejections. You just need to find that place where you can fit in. And maybe after a dozen rejections, you might say, well, maybe there’s something that I need to fine-tune in my query letter. Or maybe I should create a social media account to make myself a little bit more present and known. But there is no definitive path to publication. Is that fair?
LD: That’s absolutely true.
JB: I want to add in one other thing that comes up a lot in these discussions, especially with genre authors. There’s no such thing as an apprenticeship in short fiction. That is some of the most harmful advice that I have seen in my career, to suggest that people need to do an apprenticeship in short fiction. They’re completely different forms of art.
W4W: Thank you so much for saying that, because even when I was pursuing a BA and an MFA, the message still seemed to be like, well, start in short stories, get a grip of that first and submit and get published. Then move on to the novel. But over the years, of course, and with experience and with seeing students writing their work too and stuff, they are completely different beasts to wrestle. So it doesn’t need to be that stepping stone. You don’t need to have the apprenticeship of short stories in order to write novels.
Here’s a basic question, since we’re talking about query letters. What makes a good query letter? What catches your eye in a query? And then what’s an immediate turn off?
LD: For me, I want it right up front to tell me the title, the genre, the word count. And I don’t automatically reject it, but I hate the words “fictional novel,” because a novel is fictional.
And then I want a synopsis. I want to know who your main characters are. What the internal and external stakes are. If it’s science fiction and fantasy, I want to know what makes your world unique. I want to know what’s going on, what the tension is. I want to get invested so that I want to read it. And then I want your bio. I want to know something about you. If there’s something in the book, some interesting science or something and you have a particular in to it, that’s great. If you’re a part of a writing program, that’s great. Something about you.
And then I just want you to say, thank you for your time. I look forward to hearing from you. Something nice and respectful. And then a close. I mean, so just invest us in it. If you know something about one of our clients or something like I’m a big fan of N. K. Jemisin, something like that, put that in the query letter. I mean, so if you want to make it personal or I heard you speak, I really liked what you had to say. If you want to put something personal. Flattery is nice. We’re not going to represent you or not based on it, but we don’t mind. But something like that. That is a good query letter.
Red flags are something like I look forward to hearing from you as soon as possible. Anything that sounds like racism, bigotry, anything like that, huge red flags for me. I don’t like people telling me this is sure to be a movie. Things like that, they’re going to be disappointed. Or someone who would like try to negotiate with me before we’ve even started working together. Arrogance or things like all the other agents, all the other people out there—I’ve gotten this, I really have—all the other people out there have failed to appreciate my genius. I’m dying of cancer, and I just need you to take my book before . . . Yes, I’ve seen that. So don’t do any of those things.
JB: I’ll just lay on that briefly. Print the thing on a piece of paper even though you’re emailing it. If it won’t print on a single side of a sheet of paper unless you do it in 8-point Tahoma, it’s too long. So keep it succinct. I have sometimes told people to resubmit a query letter with some bio information and then maybe I’ll ask for the book, because the one thing that just sets me off is you don’t say anything bio-wise. You think the only thing I care about is your book. Sorry, no, I’m going to have a relationship with you.
Lucienne mentioned a little bit of that. Maybe there’s a connection between your job and the book. You’ve been a writer. You’ve been, I will add, if you don’t think there’s anything, start telling me about your hometown and where you went to college, because maybe I was born and grew up in the next town over. Maybe I went to the same school and I’m feeling a lot of school spirit. But always say something about yourself. Do not ask me to represent a novel by implying that you were in no way interesting enough to justify three sentences in your own query letter.
W4W: That’s great advice. I mean, it runs counter to some of what I’ve seen online in terms of keeping the focus on the book and not on the author. But like you said, Joshua, you’re contemplating entering into a relationship with a human being, not a book. And it may be a relationship that is a long-lasting one. So I think it’s a great advice to recognize that and provide the agent with something personal.
LD: I also want to say the query letter should match the tone of the book as well. If the tone of the book is humorous, then the synopsis should be humorous, sarcastic, flippant, whatever the tone of the book is. If it’s suspenseful, then the summary should be suspenseful. The query letter should match the tone of the book, and you should put as much work into that query letter as you do the novel, because it’s representing the novel. And if it doesn’t make a good impression, then we’re not really going to move on or not give you much time.
I’ve seen people put a lot of work into that first chapter and then it drops off after that. So don’t do that either. You’ve got to put the work in all throughout, and don’t just give us a great first chapter and then not put that same care into the rest of the book.
JB: To Lucienne’s comment, one of the related things to putting all the work into the first chapter is that you overwork the first chapter. One of the analogies I use is your first chapter is not like the cable that totes the roller-coaster car up to the first hill and then it can coast on gravity. A book doesn’t work that way. You cannot coast on gravity by just putting all of this energy into trying to make the first chapter uplifting.
W4W: What about comparative titles with query letters? Is that something that is often looked at very carefully as well? How important is that compared to introducing yourself as a person and writer?
LD: Some people say it’s really important. To me, I think you want to be the person that people are going to be compared to later on. So I mean, I think if you’ve got comparison titles, that’s great. It helps me place you in the market. But if you don’t, I wouldn’t say rack your brain and martyr yourself over it. Just tell me about your novel.
It’s up to the pros, first of all, to know where you fit and to help you with that. But also, there are some people that, like I said, are going to be the people that are going to be compared. And those are the people that I want. I want the people that are really fresh and different, which is not to say that you won’t still have comparisons, because we’re going to have to come up with comparisons sooner or later. But I would say, don’t kill yourself over it.
JB: Yeah, and that’s really good advice. But you cannot be blind or oblivious to where in the bookstore your book is going to be shelved. Bookstores are not shelved alphabetically by author. They are shelved in categories. Books are sold based on categories. If you ever put in your query or feel in your mind that you do not know where in the bookstore your book would go, that is a pretty big problem. And it doesn’t require a comp title to know where your book would be shelved.
W4W: Here’s another question from the chat. As a woman querying, would mentioning children and familial roles carry the same disadvantages as mentioning them in a job interview? Will an agent hear that I have children and think that my hands are too full?
LD: No, we never ask. It’s not an issue. A lot of us in the industry have kids and families, and would never consider that it would hinder anyone.
JB: Never having had kids myself, I don’t understand how people can possibly find time to write and have children. But yet people manage to do it. Most writers are going to be balancing those things. It’s definitely not a deal breaker.
W4W: Good to know. I wanted to ask a question about the writer/agent relationship. When you have a relationship with a client that goes on for a number of years and you become familiar with them on a personal level, and you get to know their family, you get to know their spouse, their significant other, and yet you’re still involved in a business relationship—how do you balance the business part of it with the personal relationship that naturally develops over time?
JB: You juggle that all the time with your coworkers at work. To me, that’s just part of being an empathetic and concerned and interested human being in the world and the people that surround you.
LD: Yeah, I agree. There are authors who came to my wedding. There are authors who are coming to my daughter’s wedding, but we still talk business. When we talk business, we’ll chat for a minute. How’s your daughter doing? How’s this doing? And then we’ll just change and we’ll just, on to business. And it’s just the conversation changes and we talk business and it’s fine.
And it’s just, like Joshua said, it’s just what you do.
W4W: We’ve had a few questions about writing and pen names and a couple of questions about ghostwriting. How does that work on your end as an agent?
LD: I have several authors that write under different names, and I represent all of them. I mean, you have to, because you’re coordinating with the different publishers, the different publication dates and the non-compete clauses and the options and everything else.
W4W: Joshua?
JB: Pretty much the same. And then ghostwriting is just, well, that’s never been one of my strengths as an agent, working on the work for hire, the ghostwriting kind of thing. But we were talking at London Book Fair with Kevin Anderson & Associates, which is a big player in matching people who need a ghostwriter with ghostwriters. And we were talking to them about, so, these are the things that we’re looking for in writers, and et cetera, et cetera.
You’ve got to, as an agent, be able to juggle things that are common parts of the business, and the idea of pen names or ghostwriters, these are things that have been part of the business pretty much as long as the business has been around. So you’ve got to navigate it.
W4W: What advice would you have for up-and-coming writers? Is it better to approach query letters and finding an agent by using your actual name and representing your actual work? Or is it kind of the Wild West out there?
JB: I can think of some specific instances, like maybe you have a job that’s really restrictive, where you need to use a pen name. So again, it’s just part of the business. I mean, maybe you have a reason, but I would say, what is the reason? I don’t know that using pen names is just the thing to do because it’s like cool or something. Your name is an asset. Why are you doing it? That’s just the basic place I would start with.
LD: If you’re a ghostwriter, you don’t obviously claim credit publicly. But you can put it on your vitae when you’re going for ghostwriting jobs and things like that. And of course, obviously you’ve shared that information with your agent. So I mean, it’s something that you can use as a writing credit within the industry to get other jobs, other ghostwriting jobs and things like that. You just can’t share publicly that you take credit for writing a particular thing, because that’s part of the whole ghostwriting gig.
W4W: Well, this hour went by very fast. I want to thank you both so much for sharing your wisdom with us this evening. And thanks to the audience as well for asking so many great questions.
JB: Yeah, thank you, Jacob and Paul. And always great to do things like this with Lucienne.
LD: You too, Joshua. Thank you all.
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